In this episode of Success in Chaos, Angela Adams, RN, and Kandice Garcia, RN, talk with John Hill, founder and principal of Healthcare Consensus Partners and a seasoned healthcare executive with over 25 years of leadership across for-profit, nonprofit, and faith-based health systems. They discuss the chaotic healthcare landscape and the essential qualities of effective leadership in such an environment. John shares insights on the importance of focus, clarity, and authenticity in leadership, especially during transformative times. He emphasizes the need for leaders to connect with their personal ‘why’ and to foster alignment within their teams to navigate challenges successfully. The conversation also touches on the role of coaching in helping leaders find clarity amidst chaos and the value of experiential learning in leadership development.
Episode chapter guide:
00:00 Introduction to Success in Chaos
04:40 The State of Healthcare: Chaos and Innovation
11:52 Leadership in Chaotic Environments
20:03 The Power of Authentic Leadership
20:03 The Power of Authentic Leadership
Full Transcript
AI-generated transcript. Accuracy may vary; please excuse any transcription errors.
John Hill
And so I remember going, gosh,
There’s my why. My why in the pandemic was about, gosh, can’t have a family lose a parent. can’t parents lose children. We can’t do any of that. So all of a sudden, that was the power of my why that I could bring to the leadership to say, hey, listen, we’re all gonna bring something that’s really powerful that we can dig into in the times when it’s really gonna get tough. And that really navigated and helped me steer through some really
challenging times.
Kandice Garcia, RN
Yeah.
Angela Adams, RN
Hi, and welcome to Success in Chaos, a healthcare podcast where each episode is dedicated to unlocking success amid the rapidly changing and uncertain environment of healthcare. I’m Angela Adams, the CEO of Inflo Health.
John
So.
Kandice
And I’m Kandice Garcia Tomkins, your guide through operational change and owner of Tungsten QI Partners.
Angela
We are so excited to introduce our guest today, John Hill. John Hill is the founder and principal of Healthcare Consensus Partners and a seasoned healthcare professional with over 25 years of leadership really across nonprofit, for-profit, faith-based health organizations. He is a former CEO of multiple hospitals and health systems of which we’ll go through on this call.
John
Thank you.
Angela
John is known for guiding organizations through transformations, transformational moments, ⁓ authenticity, and strategic clarity. He is also nationally recognized as an executive coach and a speaker dedicated to helping leaders thrive in the complexity of healthcare. ⁓ John is a close friend of mine. He also is my CEO, advisor, and coach and has been
so incredibly helpful for me over the course of the last three years. Welcome, John. Thanks for being here.
John
Hey, thanks guys, thanks for having me.
Angela
Absolutely. So we like to start with a little fun ⁓ exercise called two truths and a lie. You’re going to tell me and Candace three very interesting factoids of which two are true and one is a lie and we are going to try to guess which one is the lie.
Kandice
Okay.
John
Love this. All right. So ⁓ the very first one is when I was 16 years old, I paddled down the Paria River in Southern Utah, Northern Arizona for five days in a handmade kayak.
Kandice
Okay.
John
The second.
Angela
That’s all, you know, go on. ⁓
Kandice
You
John
The second is, in my 40s, I was detained by Ecuadorian customs coming into the country of Ecuador. ⁓
Angela
Okay.
John
And
the third, when I was 18, I lip synched and danced to the song, Every Little Step I Take by Bobby Brown on stage in front of 500 people.
Kandice
You
I
want that one to be true. Okay. And I want to see the video. Okay.
Angela
Kandice, what’s your guess?
Kandice
you know, I’m, I’m going to go with the handmade kayak. I think maybe you it, but I don’t think you made the kayak.
Angela
⁓ so you think he changed a fact.
Kandice
Yeah, it’s not, I
think it was a full
trip. Yeah.
Angela
I think that it was the last one, the lip syncing. John, which one was it?
John
The lie is that I was not detained by the custody officers when I went in. I was stopped, but I was not detained.
Angela
So then if you could link the video, Allison, of John lip syncing for our guest audience, I think they would all appreciate that.
John
Let me just say that was not one of my finest artistic moments. it was a bad experience. It actually ⁓ made me start to think about healthcare as a career and not acting or anything.
Kandice
I certainly would.
So it was pivotal, no matter what it was, it was a pivotal moment in your life.
John
It was transformational. It was very chaotic. It was transformational.
And here we are today, thankfully.
Kandice
Mm-hmm.
Angela
I love this.
⁓ That gives the audience a sense for who John Hill is as a person. He is an adventurer. That’s one thing that I should have put in his opener. Probably out of all of my ⁓ great friends in life, he is probably one of the greatest adventurers in my group, which I appreciate because I have been on many an adventure with John.
Kandice
I’m learning.
Angela
⁓ Let’s get into it. We are excited. ⁓ John, for the first question, I just want to get a sense. You have led multiple organizations, both in urban and rural settings. Bozeman Health being one of them out in Montana, which is where you live now. Peace Health being one of them, a faith-based, I can’t even speak today, organization, and HCA, which, you know.
A lot of people know who HCA is out there. So what’s your take? Is healthcare in chaos or what would be your opinion there?
John
There’s no question, healthcare is in chaos. And let me just say this, we’ve all heard healthcare is a very complex business and it’s complex because of all of the reimbursement dynamics that we know are so complicated. Clearly we know that healthcare is moving through a stage of digitization, meaning that they’re starting to be more connected. All of the elements that come with technology and
bringing that into a very people-driven care model process. Healthcare just has all this complexity. But as I think back through 30 years of working in healthcare, I would say the last five years are perhaps one of the most chaotic. And if we think about it, those of us that are here on this podcast today, anybody that’s listening, if you were a part of a healthcare team during the pandemic, what incredible
⁓ opportunities to lead and to experience such incredible chaos, complexity, novelty, all of that was just incredible. But what we saw specifically for me, what I saw was healthcare teams, physicians, nurses, clinicians, respiratory therapists, anybody who was a part of a care delivery team, just innovate and excel, even elevate the way that we cared for one another, that we cared for our patients.
Kandice
Now.
John
So while it was chaotic, it was beautiful. But if you think about from that experience in
the pandemic, and then you see the aftermath, the aftermath was the financial reckoning, which I often say is the financial pandemic that followed the COVID-19 situation. And then from there, we suffered a workforce or a workforce shortage pandemic. And now here we are today in a policy pandemic.
where we are uncertain about what’s going to happen as it relates to reimbursement. What are some of the governmental programs? What will still be ⁓ available to Medicaid beneficiaries? What’s going to happen with Medicare Advantage? You can just see that over the last five years, we as healthcare leaders, we as members of the healthcare team, we have been living in one of the most dynamic, unpredictable, unprecedented times of the history in my career of healthcare.
Is it chaotic? There’s no question about
Angela
I love that you flipped that on its head and said that, you know, chaotic, but, beautiful because of the innovation, the working together as a team, the pulling together as a unit. Cause most people, when you say the word chaos, it’s a negative connotation, but I agree with you. Very, very amazing things can come out of a period of chaos and complexity. ⁓
I’m curious to know, you’ve probably seen across all of the different organizations and you’ve led a lot of it yourself. What leads to successful outcomes for leaders in these chaotic and complex environments? Like, what do you think drives that success more than anything?
John
Yeah, you mentioned the various organizations that I’ve had the opportunity to work with and all of them have been so dynamic and in my experience, positive. So if you take HCA Hospital Corporation of America, arguably one of the best operators of hospitals in the world. They have just dialed it in. Their quality is fantastic. Their ability to engage the patient, their workforce, their physicians, the outcomes are…
know, just incredible. So what a great experience. And I learned the mechanics of healthcare leadership and how to run an organization from HCA. When I transitioned over into nonprofit faith-based healthcare leadership, I learned the humanics of healthcare. And so when you think about, you know, both sides of the equation, what I think really is imperative to great leadership is focus.
Kandice
Hmm.
John
and focus
on whatever the initiative is. We talked about the pandemic, we talked about coming out of the pandemic and the financial crisis. There was one or two key priorities or what I like to call the critical few focus areas that leaders, when they can really dial in not only their personal focus, their professional focus, but the collective focus of a team. And that could be an executive team.
or even a larger management team, when all individuals are fully aligned, some great, great outcomes come to pass. So I’ll give you a quick example, we’ll refer back to the pandemic. But as you know, coming through that, it’s like, gosh, you know, what do we do? How do we care for our teams? How do we keep our employees or our workforce safe? So very quickly, it was like, well, gosh, the three things that we have to do over the next
18 to 24 months is we need to keep our team safe, we need to keep our patients safe, and we need to keep our community safe. And that was the order of priority. And you can imagine, you I had to get behind that notion. I had to share that. I needed to see my colleagues at the executive level, at the board level, really support that notion. And once we were all aligned,
It came out to the managers, the frontline leaders, and then of course the frontline teams. And when you have that exquisite alignment around that purpose, which is we’re keeping our team safe, we’re keeping our patients safe, and then we’re going to keep our community safe, all of that really started to generate some incredible information, some trust, some teamwork that perhaps I’ve not seen in my career. So that I think is a great example of
How do we really gain alignment and excel in our leadership? And that’s around focus.
Kandice
Is that.
like a change in the way that people are leading in healthcare? Is that like a, you you mentioned like through these different pandemics, is that like the outcome that leadership needs to be different now? We need to lean with, lead with vision and alignment? ⁓ Or is that, has that always been the case?
John
Thank
I think it’s always been there, Kandice. I think often, as we started with, healthcare is very complex and there are so many things that we have to do as leaders, as team members. And I think we can find that our focus or sometimes our energy is diluted across 20, 15, 30 different things. I work with organizations every day when I say, you know, what are your priorities? And I’ll get a list of 20.
Kandice
Yeah.
John
30 priorities and it’s like, well, gosh, how can you accomplish all 30 things? And typically the conversation is, well, we have to, that’s what’s required of us to excel and support our community and our patients and our teams. But I think what happens is during time when we start to focus on the critical two or three things like we did during the pandemic or like we do anytime in an organization
Kandice
Mm-hmm.
John
when we have to get management focus or leadership focus,
and we really double down on that alignment and the two or three things that need to be accomplished, that’s when the greatest success happens. So I think it’s always been there, but I also think that as an organization or as an industry, we can sometimes get lost in the complexity and try to do too much or try to accomplish too many things across our very, very full agenda.
Angela
So interesting that, ⁓ go ahead Candace. I was just going to say, on our last podcast, we had Dr. David Larson from Stanford and he said something very similar. In fact, he opened with an example of this, which was that, you know, they sat down as an organization and they tried to pick all of the things that they were going to go after. And the list was just so long and they had to establish like, what are the priorities on this list? Like what?
Kandice
Yeah, there’s go ahead.
I was just gonna comment.
Angela
Where do we start? Where do we focus? And they were able to, with a framework, really actually get after way more than I thought possible. I think by the end of the year, Kandice, it was something like 40 something initiatives that they brought across the finish line successfully in like a really chaotic environment. But it was starting with hundreds and like drafting them down and being able to consume those and really getting people’s heads focused around those critical few. So.
John
Thank
Angela
common thread between your podcast and his there on what leads to success and chaos.
John
Thank
Yeah, if I might though, I would even take that a little bit further because I totally agree. It’s the critical few getting really focused. It’s also, what is the problem that we’re trying to solve with these priorities? Like to what end and why are we doing this work? And so, consolidating, prioritizing, but also getting very clear. And I think clarity is a really important part of leading in chaos, which is,
Do we actually know the why behind the initiatives or the priorities that we’re trying to solve? we truly understand that? And more importantly, do we all buy into the why behind that? And if we do, then we can focus and then we can do that with high definition or high clarity of understanding and purpose, again, elevating the potential and all the capacity of a team.
Angela
is.
John
Thanks.
Kandice
you
Yeah, you you would think that the why would just be, you know, effective patient care or safe patient care, you know, we’re hospitals, we’re providing care. But even the whys can be so much more complex than that. And I think that, you know, I was a nurse on the front line, I work in quality, so we’re improving, you know, frontline processes.
Angela
a good trip.
John
the
Kandice
You can really feel if an organization is not aligned around a common goal, you know, it’s hard to make a decision about where to put your energy. It feels very disjointed about, you know, and it feels very chaotic to even do any work because maybe it’s a budget thing or it’s a measure thing or it’s a regulatory thing. And if your leadership doesn’t kind of align or translate all of those towards a common goal, and maybe that’s more of what it is because it all needs to be done, but.
John
Thank you.
Kandice
Can we translate it? Can we interpret all of these things towards a specific end so that we all feel aligned in our mission and like what you said that we can all connect with it in a way that really matters? Do you think it’s more of the translation of the goals and initiatives?
John
Yeah. ⁓
Kandice, that was beautifully stated. And I would add one element that I think is really powerful is how do we internalize that? How do we believe that for ourselves on an individual basis so that we bring that individual purpose to the collective power of the team? And Angela has heard this from me in the past, but I think, you know, I’ve always understood the power of why we do things. We’ve all seen mission or vision.
Kandice
Yeah.
Yeah.
John
or purpose statements in organizations. But I think the first time that I really felt empowered by my own personal why, again, going back to the pandemic. And I remember getting a phone call from my mom and saying, gosh, it must just be crazy. Are you scared? Are you nervous? How are your teams going? And she made a comment, which was, listen, you remember that your great-great, excuse me, your great-grandmother died in the 1914-15 Spanish flu pandemic.
Kandice
Mm.
John
because at
the very end she contracted the virus, left a very large family, and your grandmother was the oldest daughter of that family who had to lead for the rest of her life, her siblings, and really reconcile what happened during that pandemic back in the 14s and the 15, 1914 and 15s, because she lost her mom to a health event.
And so I remember going, gosh,
There’s my why. My why in the pandemic was about, gosh, can’t have a family lose a parent. can’t parents lose children. We can’t do any of that. So all of a sudden, that was the power of my why that I could bring to the leadership to say, hey, listen, we’re all gonna bring something that’s really powerful that we can dig into in the times when it’s really gonna get tough. And that really navigated and helped me steer through some really
Kandice
Yeah.
John
challenging times. And so that’s a, for me, that’s always the powerful example of my
wife.
Kandice
Yeah, you know, it matters so much. We especially in healthcare, you’re like every day you’re just like seeing more and more patients, maybe you’re, ⁓ you know, doing exams, the same exam over and over again. And you can get really caught up in the chaos of the personalities in your department, the, you know, the leader, the local leadership or like the misalignment with the vision. can all feel very bad.
And so you forget like why you were here to begin with. You forget what brought you and you forget that each patient is having an experience with you that’s meaningful. And to your point, if we as healthcare workers can remember and connect with that, and if we have organizations that continue to focus on that, I think that we’re all just better off. Not only is it better care for our patients, but it’s just more meaningful for all of us.
got here for a reason. We all joined healthcare to save and help people. And yeah, I think that is probably some of the joy that we can bring back to work if we can remember that connection.
John
Yeah, Kandice, I couldn’t
agree more. That’s very rich. So thank you for sharing.
Kandice
Mm.
Angela
John, I want to switch gears a little bit here, but it’s on the same path. You coach a lot of CEOs that I would say are in chaos when you get to them. They’re in some kind of transformation. They’re in some kind of defining moment. ⁓ Tell us a little bit about your coaching style and how you approach those leaders and how you
get them to this sense of clarity when I’m sure when you get to them, it’s like hair on fire. What do I do? Help me solve my problem. like you got to quickly kind of dial it down. Tell me about your coaching style and leading healthcare leaders.
John
Yes.
Kandice
Hmm.
John
Yeah, well, first of all, think health care leaders are so phenomenal to support and be a part of their journey. That’s just such a gift in my life. And having sat in the chair and led organizations and been a part of extraordinary teams and mentored and coached by other great leaders, you bet being at the elbow or sometimes behind the scenes with an executive
And they do come in and they’re like, I
don’t know how to solve this issue or I’m lost in the middle of all this complexity. I’m losing myself. I’m losing my professional footing and what do I do? And, I think, um, you know, it gets back to a couple of things. First of all, in, in healthcare delivery, we do a lot of simulation. We practice, we train, we’re constantly validating our competencies. And what I love about that.
Kandice
Yes.
John
is we need to demonstrate that we can actually do the work that we say we can do because patients’ lives are at stake. We have to have a trusted level of skill or professionalism as we come into those environments. What we don’t typically train in healthcare though is how we show up once we’re demonstrating or applying those technical or clinical skills because Kandice, you just mentioned an
Angela, I know you as a nurse as well. There’s a lot
Kandice
So,
John
that goes on inside when you’re providing the clinical care or, you you’re trying to revive someone who’s in the ICU who just decompensated or you’re, you know, working as a member of a team in a very critical situation, trying to revive the patient, the emergency department, all of that is just, as you might imagine, unprecedented and it’s chaotic. And our training gives us standards, practice, infrastructure.
Kandice
Yeah.
John
But how are we showing
up in the middle of all of that? So the work that I do with executives is to say, we need to actually train ourselves how to respond to the chaos. What are the behaviors? What are the internal emotions that are coming forward? What are the derailers that we often experience? How do we drop into our highest performance? And we’ve often talked about, well, how do you get in the zone or how do you
Kandice
Hmm.
John
drop into your flow
to really do that. So the work that I do with executives is I try to pull them out of their office, pull them out of the work they do on a daily basis and say, hey, let’s put you into a situation that is new, it’s novel, and perhaps it’s pushing your boundaries and maybe the edge of who you are as a leader because I want you to get comfortable in the ambiguity. I want you to get comfortable.
knowing that you have probably a little bit more compassion or a little bit more capability to listen or a little bit more opportunity to hold yourself in neutrality or outside of judgment so that that practice can be applied when chaos happens. And it will happen and it happens either on a daily basis, weekly, monthly basis. and I love using outdoors.
Kandice
Yeah.
John
as the classroom. So experiential learning for me is really big because that’s how I learn. That’s why
we train and we demonstrate our skills and competencies. But how are we training being a leader and showing up in our best physiological and psychological states to really drive the highest performance and gifts that we have to offer to a specific situation? So that’s a little bit about what and how I work with leaders.
Angela
And I can tell you, I can tell you from my own experience,
Kandice
Are you saying that?
John
you
Angela
Ron gave me one of my very first feedbacks from my board while we were walking a trail in Montana that had signs everywhere about bears and danger. And here we are hiking through this bear infested woods and the whole time I’m thinking, am I going to get eaten?
Kandice
Mm-hmm.
Angela
by a bear while John is delivering my results from my board on how they felt like I was doing. The very next adventure I was like had told John at some point, which don’t ever tell John what your fear is, he will make you feel safe, is that I have this very unusual pair of sharks. And the next thing I knew I was diving in Belize with John and sharks were literally a foot away from my face. And so yeah.
Kandice
Yes.
Angela
He puts you in scenarios in which you do have to figure out quickly how to drop into your flow and then mimic that behavior when the pressure is really on. So speaking from experience here.
Kandice
Hmm.
Okay, so my biggest fear is gourmet meals in Italy with very expensive wine.
John
For some reason I’m not playing this here, but yes, I love that. Let’s expand your wilderness of ⁓ food and culinary experience, Love it.
Kandice
would love a little exposure therapy. Yes. Thank you.
Thank you.
Angela
⁓ that’s awesome. ⁓
John
Yeah, I was just going to say,
you know, in those experiences, what we often find, and I think we all can demonstrate this at one point or another, whether we were in sports growing up, whether we, you know, again, we’re in the arts or performing. My mother’s a ⁓ performance organist and pianist. And I always look at people who perform at their highest and best state. And I think, gosh,
Did they just accidentally find themselves in flow or in the zone? But what I find is with high performing leaders, professional athletes, anybody that I’ve studied for a long time, is they actually understand the markers or the milestones before they drop into that state of highest performance flow or in the zone. And they understand what it takes to drop in and the landscape
Kandice
Mm.
John
milestone markers of saying, okay, now I’m a little bit anxious, but I’m starting to like catch my breath and my respiratory rate is starting to come down a little bit. I’m starting to see some clarity. Things are starting to become a little bit more understood that I can start to assimilate all of the stimulus and the information in a way that I normally don’t do so that I can respond effectively. And when you start to learn how you drop in,
Kandice
Mm. ⁓
Hmm.
John
That’s really important. And it’s also important to know we can’t always be at our highest and best levels of performance. We can’t always live in the zone. And I think as leaders sometimes we expect to be in the highest performance state all the time. That’s not the case. can only do that for so long and then we need to drop out. We need to recover. We need to rest. We need to find the time to rejuvenate so that at the right time again, we can drop in, but we can access that more readily.
and be at our highest and best state to perform, lead, to demonstrate anything that would be of value to our organization and to our team.
Angela
So many insights to unpack there. ⁓ I think what we’ll do is we’ll do a little brief
and just get some of those nuggets. Would love to have you on the podcast again. ⁓ In closing, I wanted to ask you a question because in just spending time with you, I feel like you’re one of the most authentic leaders that I’ve worked with. And I just wonder
John
and.
Angela
Like what is your sense about the power of authenticity in leading teams through successful transitions in the midst of chaos and how does that play into this?
John
Yeah, it’s a great question, Angela. one of my great mentors and coaches brought this very notion, the ethos that I often try to share with others, which is leaders go first. And you can’t show up in authenticity unless you’re authentic with yourself. And so are you willing to come into the inner self and be authentic and be true and say, okay, what are my gifts? What are my…
Kandice
Mm-hmm.
John
opportunities, what are my blind spots and stay in that space, not always, but for periods of time where it’s productive, meaning that are we finding solitude where we can just really sit down and say, you know, who am I and how am I doing in terms of my leadership and what are the opportunities and practicing
a little self-forgiveness, but also practicing incremental improvement. And I do think that
When we go first as a leader and we do the inner work, we rumble with our inner selves, we start to realize that we’re okay. We’re comfortable with who we are. We can grow internal authenticity because once we start to accept who we are and we can be authentic with ourselves, it’s very natural for us to share
Kandice
So,
John
that outside. So I always like to say,
Kandice
Hmm.
John
You can’t fake caring as a healthcare leader and you’re out on the front lines and you’re with your team, your teams care. They’re called to that work. They love taking care of other people and in doing that type of work. If a leader shows up and we try to show that we care and it’s not our nature or it’s not authentic, a nurse, a physician, a therapist,
an environmental service worker, they will sniff that out in a heartbeat. So having the ability in our nature to show up authentically, well as in our full caring and our full humanity, if we can reconcile that internally, it’s much easier to share with those that we have the opportunity to serve. ⁓
Kandice
Mm.
I mean, that’s true to leadership and I would say it’s true to life. you know, I think if the goal is experience and connection and care, you know, if you get the opportunity to do it as a leader and bring people along with you, what a gift. What a gift. Thank you so much, John. That was, that was lovely.
Angela
John, feel like after listening to this, you’re probably going to have a bunch of our healthcare executive leaders that want to know, couldn’t they talk to you? Can they ⁓ have a coaching session? How do they reach you? How do they get on your agenda, I guess?
John
You bet.
Kandice
you
John
Well, let me just say this. ⁓ I would love to talk to any healthcare leader that’s going through that personal journey or in a challenging situation. I do that all the time. Anybody who calls me up, I would just love to have the conversation to say, how can I help? What can we do to work through this together? And ⁓ obviously I can provide my contact information, but I think that’s probably a really key takeaway. ⁓ I’m one of many.
a hundred people out in your network that you could reach out to. I think during times of chaos and complexity, sometimes we try to figure it out on our own or we have one or two people that we try to talk to all the time, but there are a lot of people within our network that we can have access to. And let’s be bold and courageous and reach out to people that we don’t really know because their experience I think will enrich and how we will approach and how we elevate our leadership to the next level.
Angela
Love it. Kandice, you want to wrap us up?
John
Thank
Kandice
Well, before we go, just want to know, John, are there any books that you would recommend? Top one, top three?
Give us something that
John
I mean, I’m sorry.
Kandice
we can go and kind of learn more.
John
Yeah, I’m gonna give you a little bit of a different answer on that, Kandice. And let me, here’s the quick story. Read something that you’re not interested in learning about. Meaning, if you wanna learn about leadership, there’s a lot of leadership books that are great and those are powerful and I think we should read those. But I think we should expand and read something about architecture. We should read something about.
Kandice
Okay.
And then…
John
permaculture or gardening or wine and food in Italy, whatever it is, there is something that is a corollary that will pique the interest of the problems that we’re trying to solve in our work. And there’s a lot of solutions hidden in materials and reading outside of what we normally think will help us elevate our leadership. my, my, ⁓ invitation is go find something really
interesting that you love.
and read it with the intention that it’s going to improve your leadership. And my sense will be you’ll learn something from that that will elevate who you are as
Kandice
Good morning.
I love that perspective and creativity and community. just feel like there was such a thread in everything that you’ve meant to talk to us about today. That is so genuine, like Angela said, so authentic. Thank you so much for joining us. It was such a pleasure to have you. And we look forward to when you come back and talk to us again. Thanks so much, John. All right. Well, thank you to our audience for joining us on Success in Chaos. Please be sure to like.
John
Thank you guys. It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you.
Angela
Thank you, John.
Kandice
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